Joseph Smith
Joseph Smith the Prophet
Joseph Smith, whose name is appended to the Articles of Faith, is the prophet and revelator through whom was restored to earth the Gospel of Jesus Christ, in these the last days, the dispensation of the fulness of times, declared and predicted by prophets in earlier dispensations. The question of this man’s divine commission is a challenging one to the world today. If his claims to a divine appointment be false, forming as they do the foundation of the (Mormon) Church in this the last dispensation, the superstructure cannot be stable; if, however, his avowed ordination under the hands of heavenly personages be a fact, one need search no farther for the cause of the phenomenal vitality and continuous development of the restored Church of Jesus Christ.
The circumstances of the divine dealings with Joseph Smith, the marvelous enlargement of the work instituted by this latter-day prophet, the fulfilment through his instrumentality of many of the momentous predictions of old, and his own prophetic utterances with their literal realizations, will yet be widely acknowledged as proof conclusive of the validity of his ministry. The exalted claims maintained for him and his life’s work, the fame that has made his name known for good or evil among most of the civilized nations of the earth, the stability of the religious and social systems that owe their origin as nineteenth-century establishments to the ministrations of this man, give to him an individual importance demanding serious and impartial consideration.
His Parentage and Youth-Joseph Smith Jr. , the third son and fourth child in a family of ten, was born December 23, 1805, at Sharon, Windsor County, Vermont. He was the son of Joseph and Lucy Mack Smith, a worthy couple, who though in poverty lived happily amid their home scenes of industry and frugality. When the boy Joseph was ten years old, the family left Vermont and settled in the State of New York, first at Palmyra and later at Manchester. At the place last named, the future prophet spent most of his boyhood days. In common with his brothers and sisters he had but little schooling; and for the simple rudiments of an education, which by earnest application he was able to gain, he was mostly indebted to his parents, who followed the rule of devoting a portion of their limited leisure to the teaching of the younger members of the household.
In their religious inclinations the family favored the Presbyterian church; indeed the mother and some of the children joined that sect; but Joseph, while at one time favorably impressed by the Methodists, kept himself free from all sectarian membership, being greatly perplexed over the strife and dissensions manifest among the churches of the time. He had a right to expect that in the Church of Christ there would be unity and harmony; yet he saw among the wrangling sects only confusion. When Joseph was in his fifteenth year the region of his home was visited by a storm of fierce religious excitement, which, beginning with the Methodists, soon became general among all the sects; there were revivals and protracted meetings, and discreditable exhibitions of sectarian rivalry were many and varied. These conditions added much to the distress of the young man earnestly seeking the truth.
His Search and the Result
Angelic Visitations
Later Developments: the Martyrdom
Authenticity of Joseph Smith’s Mission
Introduction
Articles of Faith (full text)
February 7th, 2009 at 1:11 pm
So, Im curious, the Bible says that no man can look upon the face of God and live. There is never an account of anyone in the Bible meeting God face to face. Moses met him in the form of a cloud on Mt. Siani. So did God make an exception for this man?
Jamie Reply:
April 2nd, 2009 at 11:30 am
please see the following article:
http://en.fairmormon.org/No_man_has_seen_God
Many righteous men have seen God:
righteous men had seen God as documented in the scriptures:
Acts 7:55-56 ; Gen. 32:30 ; Gen. 17:1 ; Gen. 18:1 ; Acts 7:2
Ex. 3:6
Ex. 19:11
Ex. 33:11
Num. 12:7-8
1_Kings 9:2
1_Kings 11:9
Is. 6:1,5
Ex. 24:10-11
Deut. 34:10
Deut. 5:4
Jud. 13:22
Genesis3 :
Heb. 11:27
Job 42:5
Job 33:26
Job 19:26
Ez. 1:1
Ez. 8:1-4
Josh. 5:12-15
Rev. 22:4
No man hath seen God at any time “except he hath borne record of the Son ”
Good questions!
Rameumptom Reply:
April 2nd, 2009 at 1:29 pm
The Bible, as we have it today, was written by several ancient people (usually named J, E, P, D and R today). While the Bible says no one can see God’s face and live, we also read that people DID see God’s face and live.
Jacob saw God’s face: “And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved” Genesis 32:30.
Moses saw God’s face: “And the Lord spake unto Moses face to face, as a man speaketh unto his friend.” Exodus 33:11
And also: “The Lord talked with you face to face in the mount out of the midst of the fire” Deut 5:4
Numbers 14:14 tells us: “And they will tell it to the inhabitants of this land: for they have heard that thou Lord art among this people, that thou Lord art seen face to face, and that thy cloud standeth over them, and that thou goest before them, by day time in a pillar of a cloud, and in a pillar of fire by night.”
So, while it is uncommon, it does happen that God appears face to face with mankind.
February 23rd, 2009 at 11:19 pm
Joseph Smith, when he awoke from the vision, found himsef lying on the ground, looking upward.(See Pearl of Great Price, Joseph Smith Chapter 1)
His physical body did not or could not have endured the full presence of the Father and the Son in all their glory, in his mortal flesh.
He witnessed God in his spiritual body, which temporarily left his physical body as he beheld the vision.
But in any case, he did see God the Father, and His Son, Jesus Christ, and did indeed converse with them. This testimony I know to be true by the power of the Spirit witnessed to me.
February 27th, 2009 at 3:47 am
is this facts or a story?
February 27th, 2009 at 3:49 am
did j.s sin as well?
Rameumptom Reply:
April 2nd, 2009 at 1:22 pm
Joseph Smith DID sin. Our history and Doctrine and Covenants mention several times when God chastised Joseph for his sins. One instance is when he disobeyed God and gave Martin Harris the manuscript for the first 116 pages of the Book of Mormon. God twice told Joseph not to do so. Joseph finally gave them to Martin anyway. Martin lost the pages, and Joseph was removed for a few months from being able to translate.
The apostle Peter also sinned. He denied Jesus three times. Moses also sinned in getting water from the rock at Meribah without giving God glory. Prophets are not perfect.
Joseph relied on the atonement of Christ more than most people do. As with Moses or Peter, he was not God, but was called of God. And if we lived in the days of Peter or Moses, we’d be expected to follow them so as to follow Jesus, today we can follow Jesus best by following modern prophets.
March 29th, 2009 at 3:12 am
“Did Joseph Smith sin as well?”
We are all sinners. Jesus Christ is the only sinless one.
Joseph Smith was and is a Holy Prophet of God. He saw God the Father & His Son Jesus Christ.
Eventually, many millions shall know Brother Joseph again!
March 31st, 2009 at 8:42 pm
Mormonism promotes polygamy…so much for the Biblical “one man, one woman”. Both Joe Smith & Brigham Young practiced it. Mormonism is a joke, because it’s from man…not God, like the Bible. The Book of Mormon is a joke…unlike the Bible, nothing has had to be “changed” due to political pressure, like the Mormons handling of Blacks, in the form of a “revelation to Joe Smith III” . isn’t that funny….the Bible speaks of love, from the beginning to the end….not Mormonism…it’s roots are rooted in hatred and racism. Warren Jeffs ring a bell…
karenrose Reply:
April 1st, 2009 at 7:56 pm
I feel your antagonism though you speak of a gospel of love. You know little of what our hearts are and what our beliefs are, and while we may earnestly disagree on your whole take–for we do not bow to political pressure (didn’t see us cave in on Prop 8 or anything else. Any unilateral directive for God’s people always comes through a living oracle, as Amos said, if you revere the Bible as we do)–I must say this to you. We are happy to answer sincere questions, but do not allow mockery of Joseph Smith or of the Book of Mormon. I testify that the Book of Mormon is true, and admonish you to either read it or inquire about it, but not to mock it.
Warren Jeffs is not a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints nor could anyone be who practices polygamy in our day or who abuses children as a way of life.
HiJolly Reply:
April 1st, 2009 at 8:27 pm
You say that “one man, one woman” is Biblical. Please, could you provide me with that reference?
If you do, I’ll provide you with the references for Moses, Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob(Israel)’s polygamy. Most definitely BIBLICAL.
Only hatred I hear is coming from you.
Rameumptom Reply:
April 2nd, 2009 at 1:18 pm
Person of Color:
The LDS Church today does NOT promote polygamy. In fact, it excommunicates those who attempt to practice it. We believe polygamy can only be practiced when God commands it through a prophet. That has not happened in over a century in the LDS Church. Breakaway sects are not a part of our church, and we shouldn’t be judged by them. BTW, the Bible does accept polygamy. Abraham, Jacob, Moses, David, Solomon and others had more than one wife. Nathan the prophet told David that God had given him his wives, and because of David’s sins, these wives would be given to another. So, obviously God can allow it if He so chooses.
If Mormonism is a “joke” because Joseph Smith practiced it, then the Bible must also be a joke, because Abraham and Jacob had more than one wife. Are you really willing to make such an assertion?
Joseph Smith III was president of the Reorganized LDS Church (now Community of Christ), not the LDS Church in Utah. So, your data is incorrect.
As for Blacks and the priesthood ban, God banned many people in the Bible from holding the priesthood. Through Moses, the Aaronic/Levitical priesthood was limited only to the Levites, and not to anyone else in Israel. Jesus told the apostles to only preach to the Israelites and not to the Gentiles/Canaanites. Jesus even called a Canaanite woman a “dog”, because she asked him to heal her daughter. Being called a dog in the Middle East is like a bad cuss word. Only years after Jesus’ resurrection was Peter told to take the gospel to the Gentiles/Cornelius. Was Jesus a racist? Or was Jesus just following God’s command?
Was Brigham Young a racist? Probably. But so were the vast majority of white Americans in his day. Southern Baptists broke away from the American Baptist Church because they supported slavery. Racist? You bet! Brigham Young got his views from his Protestant background. The LDS Church was already under heavy attack for polygamy and other issues. How do you suppose it would have survived if God would have commanded back then that they allow blacks to have the priesthood? It wouldn’t have. Only after America was ready to accept blacks in authority, and the LDS Church was strong enough to deal with controversy, were both ready for God to lift the ban in 1978.
Since then, our congregations are integrated. We have leaders of color on all levels. We have a wonderful black bishop in my stake/district, for example.
Meanwhile, most other Christian churches are still segregated. Whites attend one church, with blacks attending in their own congregations. How is that better than the LDS Church, where we are fully integrated?
The priesthood revelation occurred over 30 years ago. It was a tough thing for everyone. But now we must move forward. Otherwise, you should be as tough on other Christian faiths for their past racism and indiscretions, such as supporting slavery (which Mormonism never has).
Warren Jeff is not LDS. He ran his own church, a break off of Mormonism that has nothing to do with the LDS Church.
To compare us with such people is ingenuous. Why not compare the Pope with Benito Musselini, because both are Catholic? Why not attack Southern Baptists today, because the church once supported slavery AND Jim Crow laws? Most KKK members are/were Protestants, why not condemn all Protestants for such racism? David Duke is a Protestant, are you willing to condemn all Protestant Christianity because of him?
Your issues are such that if we were to believe them and apply them fairly, we would have to reject Christianity and Jesus as Savior. I don’t think I’m willing to do that.
April 2nd, 2009 at 11:25 am
I am not sure about Biblical scriptures, but here is one in the Book of Mormon:
27 Wherefore, my brethren, hear me, and hearken to the word of the Lord: For there shall not any man among you have save it be bone wife; and concubines he shall have none;
(Book of Mormon | Jacob 2:27)
Marriage, Plural (see also Apostasy of Individuals)
Jacob 2:27 not any man … have save it be one wife
Jacob 2:30 if I will … raise up seed unto me I will command
D&C 132:37 Abraham … Isaac … Jacob did … that which they were commanded
D&C 132:38 in nothing did they sin save in those things which they received not of me
See also Gen. 16:1–11; 25:1; 29:28; 30:4, 9, 26; Ex. 21:10; Deut. 17:15–17; 21:15; 2 Sam. 2:2; 5:13; 12:7–9; 1 Kgs. 11:1–4; 2 Chr. 13:21; 24:3; Isa. 4:1; Ether 10:5; D&C 132:52, 61–62; Official Declaration 1.
(Topical Guide | M Marriage, Plural:Entry)
polygamy is a big subject. For those who are interested in learning more/the truths about how/why it was practiced, please go here:
http://www.fairlds.org/apol/ai049.html
April 4th, 2009 at 4:34 pm
i am sorry but i dont really believe that joseph smith was a prophet called by god to restore the church that is why jesus died on the cross. i just think that there was a big misunderstanding. jesus is not a god of confusion and if he had already told his diciples something i dont thing he would go stir up trouble and tell joseph smith somethng else. jesus is the one and only he dont need no one to restore HIS church he did it himself.
Rameumptom Reply:
April 6th, 2009 at 1:07 pm
You are welcome to believe what you will.
Jesus DID restore his Church in his day. But his apostles actually prophesied there would be another apostasy. Paul warned that after he was gone, grieving wolves would enter the flock (Acts 20:29). He also taught that in the latter days, people would become wicked and that even Satan would have great power prior to the 2nd Coming of Christ (1 Timothy 1, 2 Timothy 4:3-4, 2 Thes 2:1-5, Isaiah 29:10-13, Proverbs 29:18, Amos 8:11).
And Peter prophesied there would be another day of restoration to come, after his day. He told the Jews that Jesus would some day return, but before that Christ would have to stay there, “Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began” (Acts 3:21).
Many ancient teachings of Jesus and his apostles were lost over the centuries. Many Bible scholars have written on the struggles of the early Christian church, and its internal fight to establish an orthodoxy and standard belief system. It was extremely politicized, and not led by an apostolic revelation on issues such as: the Godhead, the dual/single nature of Jesus, faith vs works, apostolic authority, continuing revelation, baptism of small children, temple work, etc.
The early Christian apologist, Justin Martyr, in defending the Christian church against the Jew Trypho, explained that the difference between Christianity and Judaism was continuing revelation, and that if the Christians were ever to stop receiving revelation, their church would be as dead as the Jewish faith.
And yet that revelation did stop, as revelation was replaced with creeds. Later, apostolic authority was rejected by many Christians as not necessary for salvation, even though Jesus showed a pattern for us to follow, and Paul taught of its necessity (Ephesians 2:20, 4:11-14).
Jesus died on the cross to save men’s souls. But his gospel fullness and teachings needed restoring, to provide mankind a fullness of Jesus’ blessings. Apostasies had occurred before in the world. The people rejected Noah. The Israelites rejected their prophets time and again, and were punished for it. God’s pattern never changed throughout the Bible, one of following God’s prophets and apostles. Even after Jesus’ death and resurrection, that pattern continued with the apostles of Jesus. And the apostle John prophecied that there will be prophets in the last days at Armageddon, so this is a pattern that continues to the last moments of this earth’s existence.
With such a pattern that had lasted for thousands of years, why would God suddenly abandon it for something new and untried, something that is not mentioned in the Bible?
April 7th, 2009 at 6:45 pm
Jesus did not restore His church. He fulfilled His covenant with Abraham, Moses, David and all mankind. Read Acts 13:11-42 for example. The Apostles preached over and over again that it is belief in Jesus, His death and resurrection is all anyone has to do to be right with God. Jesus death on the cross was the last sacrifice, there is no further need for the office of priest. Hebrews 10:12-14,
12But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;
13From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool.
14For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.
So then there is no more priesthood. Jesus is the only priest. I am a priest because i can go directly to God through Jesus Christ as my mediator. 2 Timothy 2:5For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
So Joseph Smith could not restore anything. He could not have received any priesthood. There is nothing he could discover that would added to anything that Jesus and His apostles said or did.
As far as the difference between Methodist and Presbyterian churches that Joseph Smith found confusing, was just a difference on emphasis. Methodists emphasize man’s free will, and Presbyterians emphasize God’s sovereignty. Both are correct, both are clearly taught in the Bible. Where one ends and the other begins really makes no difference to eternal salvation. Both teach that there is no salvation other than through Jesus Christ.
April 11th, 2009 at 8:40 pm
Let me get this straight. White Jews were in America centuries ago and an “evil” sect of white Jews slaughtered them so god turned them red & they are the native Americans we know of today, according to an angel that visited Smith, AND he miraculously found golden tablets, translated them while they sat out of site in a hat, but couldn’t translate the same tablet twice when Martin Harris “lost” the first translation, And no one else ever saw these tablets or knows where they are, all less than 200 years ago? And you people actually believe this?
Mike Reply:
May 2nd, 2009 at 9:09 pm
Well, you didn’t get it straight.
April 24th, 2009 at 3:14 am
Several questions here if that’s alright.
First, why is the bible that protestants/catholics use different from the bible mormons use and how do you decide which one is correct. I mean are there contradictory manuscripts or something?
Second, in Joseph Smith’s time, they didn’t talk in an old english king james version form. So why did Joseph Smith do so much of his translation in the same style as the king james bible.
The grand finale. How do mormons handle a verse like Galatians 1:9 which basically says that if anybody teaches a different gospel from the one he taught they should be eternally condemned (tad harsh sounding I know).
Robert Reply:
May 2nd, 2009 at 10:10 am
We use the King James version of the bible. Not a different one unless the sect you are talking about doesn’t use King James. It is important to remember that the original works in the bible were in different languages and parts were then translated into different languages and that it took decades to translate everything into English.
Also realize this was done slowly by hand using quill pens and parchment paper. It is easy to see why different variations were created. Also remember the King James version was simply one of many translations that were adopted as the official version.
Joseph Smith never wrote a new bible that I am aware of. He did, through revelation, provide amendments and corrections to the King James version and we have access to those amendments.
2) Personally speaking the Lord provides wisdom to me using what is in my mind. In Joseph Smith’s time and with his level of finances and education the Bible would have been his main source of information and style. My belief is the Lord simply used what he was familiar with as his style.
However if you read the various Books in the Book of Mormon you will realize that there are many different styles of writing between the various books.
3) No contradiction to worry about. Latter Day Saints do not teach a different gospel. The church teaches the gospel as was taught when Jesus was upon the Earth. I teach Gospel Principle class (basic doctrine for people investigating the church and brand new members.) Our last lesson was on the church in Christ’s time. What I did was have them list everything they have heard about LDS that people say makes us non christian and a cult. They did this before we opened the lesson manual.
Every item they listed as making us different from other religions and “cultish” were listed in the lesson as items taught in the ancient times. And they were all supported by scripture in the New or Old Testament.
Remember back in Christ’s time there was no method of quickly copying or relaying doctrine. It is extremely easy to see how false doctrine crept into the scriptures by accident or intentional.
April 24th, 2009 at 3:21 am
Okay one more
Does the statement in Romans 10:9 about how all you need to do to be saved is confess that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead apply even to those who have a corrupt bible?
May 1st, 2009 at 2:28 pm
I do not (at the moment) have a religion, it is difficult to pick something to believe without really knowing what is out there for me.
I was wondering how someone can announce they are a prophet without the witness of others and have so many people follow what he has to say, or what he says God has told him?
And in family principles why is it wrong to drink black tea?
And how can we honesty know the day Jesus Christ was born when everything was written long after his death?
Mormon beliefs are very interesting, I would just like a better understanding.
May 2nd, 2009 at 9:56 am
My wife and I searched for a religion until this one found us.
1) At various times there were witnesses to angels visiting with Joseph Smith. For me personally this was the big one for me to accept at first. But I had prayed and felt the LDS church was for me. After thinking for a time I used logic until a sure testimony developed.
As a young man Joseph might have made up a story about being visited by God. However when we apply logic, a teenager might make that stuff up but after he was ridiculed, beaten, mobbed, stoned, tarred, chased by angry people, jailed falsely etc at some time wouldn’t he say you know what your right I made it up.
Why would anyone continue with a lie when his only gain was misery? Especially at a young age. Logic tells me no one would continue to testify it happened to him unless it really had.
2) In Joseph Smith’s time tea, coffee, Alcohol, tobacco were all considered healthy for you. Yet he said God told the Saints to avoid these “healthy” things.
A hundred fifty years or so latter and the Medical profession are catching up to the Lord. Every year we hear more and more about the harmful things the Word of Wisdom spoke against so long ago. Coca Cola used to contain cocaine which was considered a medical marvel not that long ago, when it was banned they switched to caffeine.
It is not the tea but the caffeine contained in the tea. It is proven by the medical profession to be addictive. It alters our body chemistry and makes us dependent on it. When I decided to give up coca cola I tried three times, had head aches, shakes, pains and mood swings for many days. It was the fact I had withdrawal symptoms each time I tried that allowed me to finally give it up.
3) Can’t answer this one other then the church is headed by a Prophet and the Lord might have revealed it to one of them. I don’t think man alone could figure it out. Methods of recording time etc changed many times since then.
4) Understanding of LDS beliefs is a life long pursuit. Twelve years in and I haven’t finished yet. But it is a worthwhile journey. If you want more understanding go to mormon.org or the church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.
A.T. Reply:
June 24th, 2009 at 1:27 pm
Robert,
Did you use logic when the original papyrus scroll, which Smith translated into the Book of Abraham, was found and determined that Smith’s translation was completely wrong? This scroll that “told of Abraham’s story” was actually a script that would be read at an Egyptian funeral (or whatever the equivalent was back then).
Have you been taught that you can become a god yourself yet? Read D&C 132:19-20.
Do you know that your religion believes in many gods? Read the fourth chapter of the Book of Abraham. “Gods” are mentioned over 25 times in that chapter alone.
Does any of this seem logical if this same religion believes the Bible? Isaiah 43: 10-11 says “Before Me there was no God formed, And there will be none after Me.” Of course if you bring this up to your elders at the church, it’ll be dismissed as “mistranslated” by others or “inaccurately translated” by many scribes and scholars. Why is that your church picks and chooses what part of the Bible it’s going to believe? The Book of Mormon actually denies its own inspiration (1 Nephi 19:6). It sounds as though Smith is planning on making a mistake. Maybe my thinking is wrong, but I’m pretty sure if something is God-inspired, it won’t containg mistakes. So the original author shouldn’t be worried about making mistakes. Am I wrong here?
Sabin Reply:
June 24th, 2009 at 6:04 pm
Hi A.T.,
My intent is not to be disrespectful, but I will be blunt: the answer to your final question, “Am I wrong here?” is a resounding “Yes.”
You have, apparently, sensed the same conclusion when you say, “Maybe my thinking is wrong. . .”
I sense a slight spirit of antagonism in your post. Such a spirit can and will keep you from thinking clearly and logically. However, this post is better thought out than the last one I responded to.
Let’s continue to review what you’ve said so I can accurately respond. You said,
“Maybe my thinking is wrong, but I’m pretty sure if something is God-inspired, it won’t containing mistakes.”
This is not true, A.T. There are plenty of things that are “God-inspired,” that contain mistakes. The most obvious is mankind himself.
“But there is a spirit in man: and the inspiration of the Almighty giveth them understanding” (Job 32:8).
Yet do we not contain mistakes? Of course we do. You know the scripture as well as I do: “There is none righteous, no, not one” (Romans 3:10). (Note that these scriptures are from the Bible. I love the Bible. It is one of my favorite books. I feed indebted to God for the wonderful things that are written therein.)
Yes, there are plenty of things that are “God-inspired” that are not flawless. That’s why we need Jesus. Not only will He make us flawless, but when He comes again, all will be made right. We don’t know everything, but we do know that there are countless things in science and religion, history and philosophy that we are not sure about.
And speaking of one day becoming flawless, the truth that man may become a god is taught in the Bible. If you don’t believe me then read (or reread–I’m sure you’ve read it already) “Mere Christianity” by C.S. Lewis. He’s a much better writer than I am. Also, he is not a Mormon, yet he asserts that becoming godlike (or gods, if you prefer that term) is “precisely what Christianity is about” (p. 159)
The following is a direct quote from pages 205-206 in the same book:
“The command ‘Be ye perfect’ is not idealistic gas. Nor is it a command to do the impossible. He is going to make us into creatures that can obey that command. He said (in the Bible) that we were ‘gods’ and He is going to make good His words. If we let Him–for we can prevent Him, if we choose–He will make the feeblest and filthiest of us into a god or goddess, a dazzling, radiant, immortal creature, pulsating all through with such energy and joy and wisdom and love as we cannot now imagine, a bright stainless mirror which reflects back to God perfectly (though, of course, on a smaller scale) His own boundless power and delight and goodness. The process will be long and in parts very painful, but that is what we are in for. Nothing less. He meant what He said.”
So there you have it. Paul was right when he asserted that there are “gods many, and lords many” (1 Corinthians 8:5). Note that in the scripture you quoted (Isaiah 43:10-11) “God” is capitalized, whereas in Doctrine and Covenants 132:19-20 (which you also referenced) and 1 Corinthians 8:5 “gods” is NOT capitalized. There is, obviously, a distinction between the two. Lewis’ quote above emphasizes the literal and figurative meaning of this when he says in parenthesis, “though, of course, on a smaller scale.”
Finally, you reference the Book of Abraham and say that scholars said it was not a correct translation. Yet, scholars nowadays say the same thing about religion in general–that it isn’t correct. Or that it is man-made. Scientists speak of no god and no absolute truth. But this certainly does not refute religion. It hasn’t for me. And it hasn’t for you either, I can tell. You believe in God dispite all the atheistic arguments against him. So do I.
The truthfulness of the Book of Abraham can be found out the same way the truthfulness of the Book of Mormon and the prophet Joseph Smith can be found out. In short, the same method is also used to learn of the truthfulness of the Bible: study, faith, and sincere prayer.
I testify that these things are true. I know Joseph Smith was a prophet. I know the things he taught are true.
“For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind. Be not thou therefore ashamed of the testimony of our Lord” (2 Timothy 1: 7-8).
A.T. Reply:
June 24th, 2009 at 10:06 pm
I think you’re missing the point of the translation of the papyrus scroll. He wasn’t just a little off, he was way out in left field. There are absolutely no similarities between something Abraham might have written and some pagan funeral documents. There haven’t been any manuscripts found that disprove any sections of the Bible. On the contrary, the Dead Sea Scrolls actually verified parts of the Bible as legitimate. Why does the first manuscript found, concerning Mormonism, completely disprove what was written about it? I believe Smith thought he was safe after he thought the scroll was destroyed in the fire. Looking at Smith’s translation, it appears that he had his own agendas. From what I read, during that time, the followers of Smith took everything he said without question, and he knew it. And I understand about praying for answers when you’re looking for something, but God gave us all the ability to reason and I believe he wants us to use that sometimes. If I have a document written in Spanish, I’m not going to pray to God so I can understand it. I’m going to ask someone who speaks the language to translate it.
As far as C.S. Lewis is concerned, one person writing a book doesn’t constitute doctrine. I’m not quoting some of the things McConkie wrote about in his Mormon Doctrine. I understand that, while very influential during his time, McConkie wasn’t writing scripture. It was just a book.
As far as the Bible is concerned, you can twist words and misinterperate things all day. There’s no other logical way to interpret “Before me there was no God and after me there will be none.” Lower case g. Upper case G. It doesn’t matter. He said there will be NO GODS before or after Him.
Jarron Reply:
June 24th, 2009 at 6:08 pm
Hi A.T.,
My intent is not to be disrespectful, but I will be blunt: the answer to your final question, “Am I wrong here?” is a resounding “Yes.”
You have, apparently, sensed the same conclusion when you say, “Maybe my thinking is wrong. . .”
I sense a slight spirit of antagonism in your post. Such a spirit can and will keep you from thinking clearly and logically. However, this post is better thought out than the last one I responded to.
Let’s continue to review what you’ve said so I can accurately respond. You said,
“Maybe my thinking is wrong, but I’m pretty sure if something is God-inspired, it won’t containing mistakes.”
This is not true, A.T. There are plenty of things that are “God-inspired,” that contain mistakes. The most obvious is mankind himself.
“But there is a spirit in man: and the inspiration of the Almighty giveth them understanding” (Job 32:8).
Yet do we not contain mistakes? Of course we do. You know the scripture as well as I do: “There is none righteous, no, not one” (Romans 3:10). (Note that these scriptures are from the Bible. I love the Bible. It is one of my favorite books. I feed indebted to God for the wonderful things that are written therein.)
Yes, there are plenty of things that are “God-inspired” that are not flawless. That’s why we need Jesus. Not only will He make us flawless, but when He comes again, all will be made right. We don’t know everything, but we do know that there are countless things in science and religion, history and philosophy that we are not sure about.
And speaking of one day becoming flawless, the truth that man may become a god is taught in the Bible. If you don’t believe me then read (or reread–I’m sure you’ve read it already) “Mere Christianity” by C.S. Lewis. He’s a much better writer than I am. Also, he is not a Mormon, yet he asserts that becoming godlike (or gods, if you prefer that term) is “precisely what Christianity is about” (p. 159)
The following is a direct quote from pages 205-206 in the same book:
“The command ‘Be ye perfect’ is not idealistic gas. Nor is it a command to do the impossible. He is going to make us into creatures that can obey that command. He said (in the Bible) that we were ‘gods’ and He is going to make good His words. If we let Him–for we can prevent Him, if we choose–He will make the feeblest and filthiest of us into a god or goddess, a dazzling, radiant, immortal creature, pulsating all through with such energy and joy and wisdom and love as we cannot now imagine, a bright stainless mirror which reflects back to God perfectly (though, of course, on a smaller scale) His own boundless power and delight and goodness. The process will be long and in parts very painful, but that is what we are in for. Nothing less. He meant what He said.”
So there you have it. Paul was right when he asserted that there are “gods many, and lords many” (1 Corinthians 8:5). Note that in the scripture you quoted (Isaiah 43:10-11) “God” is capitalized, whereas in Doctrine and Covenants 132:19-20 (which you also referenced) and 1 Corinthians 8:5 “gods” is NOT capitalized. There is, obviously, a distinction between the two. Lewis’ quote above emphasizes the literal and figurative meaning of this when he says in parenthesis, “though, of course, on a smaller scale.”
Finally, you reference the Book of Abraham and say that scholars said it was not a correct translation. Yet, scholars nowadays say the same thing about religion in general–that it isn’t correct. Or that it is man-made. Scientists speak of no god and no absolute truth. But this certainly does not refute religion. It hasn’t for me. And it hasn’t for you either, I can tell. You believe in God dispite all the atheistic arguments against him. So do I.
The truthfulness of the Book of Abraham can be found out the same way the truthfulness of the Book of Mormon and the prophet Joseph Smith can be found out. In short, the same method is also used to learn of the truthfulness of the Bible: study, faith, and sincere prayer.
I testify that these things are true. I know Joseph Smith was a prophet. I know the things he taught are true.
“For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind. Be not thou therefore ashamed of the testimony of our Lord” (2 Timothy 1: 7-8).
May 8th, 2009 at 4:13 pm
Joseph Smith said that angels came to him. But why could he not show any one the proff such as the stones?
May 11th, 2009 at 12:12 pm
Hi Kc,
Yes, others did behold and handle specific objects that angels had given Joseph Smith charge over. For example, in the very front of the Book of Mormon, one may read the Testimony of the Three Witnesses and the Testimony of the Eight Witnesses.
It is true, however, that the Three and the Eight were not shown the plates right away. Perhaps this was to test their faithfulness, but they did gain a witness eventually. The same is true with us. We do not receive a witness until after the trial of our faith.
June 24th, 2009 at 8:37 am
People need to read the BIBLE nothing more nothing less. The church was established the day of Pentacost in Acts 2. Jesus is the most high priest! There were no prophets after Biblical times because Jesus paid the ultimate price once and for all by dieing on the cross. There are no need for prophets since the Bible because we have the COMPLETE BIBLE and we need nothing else. People need to read the BIBLE and nothing else – their souls are in jeopardy. I will be praying for you all that you start to read the Bible and what it says and not what man says!!!
Jarron Reply:
June 24th, 2009 at 6:27 pm
Hi Carol,
I don’t mean any disrespect, but somebody’s gotta say it: you’re wrong.
For a response to what you have written that is better than anything I can write, go to http://www.lds.org/conference/talk/display/0,5232,23-1-851-30,00.html
Have a great day,
Jarron
Carol Hicks Reply:
June 25th, 2009 at 12:22 pm
Again I will be praying for your soul. If you believe or follow anything other than the Bible you are not following the one true God and the one true book that HE inspired.
Jarron Reply:
June 25th, 2009 at 2:53 pm
Hi Carol,
Once again, I mean no disrespect. However, you make claims that are not in the Bible. For example, you say that “People need to read the BIBLE and nothing else.” Yet, this very statement is not found in the Bible. Because it is not in the Bible, you must have gotten it from some other source.
Hence, the belief that “we must believe only what is in the Bible and nothing else” is NOT in the Bible. Therefore, we cannot believe it. Yet we must.
Can you see the self-contradiction?
In other words, we cannot believe either statement.
However, not only is your argument logically wrong, it is also authoritatively wrong.
God is “the same yesterday, to day, and forever” (Hebrews 13:8). He has also said, “My works are without end, and . . . my words . . . never cease” (Moses 1:4). In order for God to be the same and “unchangable God” (Doctrine and Covenants 20:17), he MUST continue to give His children scripture. He has to. Otherwise he would be a changable God, which is a contradiction.
John wrote, “And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written. Amen. (John 21:25).
The Bible itself testifies that there is more, much more.
The Lord Himself has said,
“Wherefore murmur ye, because that ye shall receive more of my word?. . . Wherefore, because that ye have a Bible ye need not suppose that it contains all my words; neither need ye suppose that I have not caused more to be written. For I command all men. . . that they shall write the words which I speak unto them; for out of the books which shall be written I will judge t he world, every man according to their works, according to that which is written” (2 Nephi 29:8,10).
He also said,
“And I do this that I may prove unto many that I am the same yesterday, today, and forever; and that I speak forth my words according to mine own pleasure. And because that I have spoken one word ye need not suppose that I cannot speak another; for my work is not yet finished; neither shall it be until the end of man, neither from that time henceforth and forever” (2 Nephi 29:9).
Again, here is the link to that article:
http://www.lds.org/conference/talk/display/0,5232,23-1-851-30,00.html
Have a great day,
Jarron
June 25th, 2009 at 12:00 am
Carol,
I am not a Mormon, yet I do have a deep respect and love for them. You state all we need is the Bible and if you hold on to that pure opinion and not let men and religious people turn you against others but show the love of Christ then I could not and would not ever argue with you one bit. There are many things in this world you can hang on to that will bring you down the road of pure misery and heartache yet with just that one book can change everything.
But I will also say, and this part is not directed at you Carol, that we love to say that we should not add too or take away from the Bible and realy use that as one of the main reasons to attack, most of the time not in love but in a divisive manner, Mormons and make them sound deranged and anti-Christ yet we live in a culture in which denominations themselves have done much worse in many cases because of the misrepresenting the scripture to fit there needs making others feel if they were not or are not part of there particular faith that they will not or may not be part of Gods Kingdom.
With all of my heart I feel that Christ is looking upon the earth today at us, Americans, and shaking his head and asking “Why?” We were once on the outside with no chance to be his, the Jews did not want us in and would of been happy keeping us out forever. Now we are in and what do we do? We are standing at the door trying to bar as many people out as we can if they will not follow our denomination or if we do accept that they may be able to come in, we make them feel as second rate citizens. Too many denominations have created a system that looks like the Pharisees and Sadducees would of created rather than followers of Christ.
I can freely say today I really do not know what denomination I am or would ever become again. But as I said before my Mormon brothers and sisters I have met have treated me with as much love and understanding, even though I am a non Mormon, as anybody I have ever come into contact with. The church structure the Mormon church is as close to the first church as any church I have found yet today. Yes there are some major belief differences but there is still that one main thing in common and that is the love of Christ and it is that love that will change the world.
June 27th, 2009 at 6:11 pm
Carol,
The whole issue should be about accepting Jesus Christ as our saviour. Yet eventually the discussions always lead to the details based upon specific interpretations of what the Hebrew Bible says and how Jesus gave us his words and works. Our entire existence is based upon cause and effect. Our questions are expecting answers. It is the western culture of scientific inquiry propelling us toward continued discord. We become sales people with the most righteous brand of Jesus Christ our sole ware. Perhaps someday we can all simply be Christians yet we’re still the world’s minority faith considering our brand of God.
Ken Paul
June 29th, 2009 at 7:23 pm
Very nicely put Kenneth and I couldn’t agree more with everything you stated….This very message is so important to get out and let the masses understand what is happening to christianity in this country.
June 30th, 2009 at 1:04 pm
We should first seek to find our common ground. Then we should explain our differences, and invite others to consider those differences and embrace them if they so choose to do so. But since we begin with common ground, we still find ourselves united on key issues, and in a brotherly bond.